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2006-05-01 [iippo]: The viewer doesn't define the art, so if they don't understand it or feel anything from it, it doesn't mean it ceases to be art. I think in here the coming-to-be comes to play. All work has the "why it was done" in its history (part of the aura). A designer designs a chair because he is hired to do so and he has the skill. That chair isn't Art. A painter can make a picture that no one gets, but the process of the artist making it still makes it art. But if no one gets it (while the artist does intend it to convey a message or emotion), it's possibly a failure and the artist wouldn't show it to many people. Remember that for every piece that an artist shows to the public, there are 9 failed..
2006-05-01 [iippo]: ... pieces in his studio. Also, some art is just meant to be decorative, pleasant for the eyes.
2006-05-01 [raza]: Mmh, so another question escape from my mind... If only one person feels something in front of what the artist did, it's art? In this case, the number of people doesn't matter. And i don't forget, don't worry, i know that... I'm not an artist, but. lol :)
2006-05-01 [iippo]: If it was still made as art, yes. So what counts for art is the thought gone into it (the "why should I do this thing?"), the process of making it and the feeling and/or meaning it conveys. For example, a lot of reneissance masterpieces were done as commissions (for rich people, for church, etc...) so the "why am I doing this" is more money/fame-bas
2006-05-01 [raza]: In this case, lots of things could be call art. And the artist can dive in a pervert thing: i first do something random, and then, he search something in it. Who could guess the,, if it was his purpose, or if he did it like that? (i know that it's not all the artist, far of that...) And if the piece must "speak for itself", it may be dangerous, because someone can interprate it badly. People may change the artist idea in something wrong, in a bad message. erhm, i'm not sure of being enough clear, must i explain more?
2006-05-01 [iippo]: But then again, the "why do something random" would be answerd with "to make art"... Then the fact that there is no such thing as random at all... When you think of something, whatever it is, it ceases to be random. Only if you are not in control of your body (like have seizures or blurt out words due to braindamage) only then it's random. But if the artist takes this approach of "I'll do something and see what it means", they are going for the "the way there makes it art" -approach. They'll probably think about half way there what it'll mean, and start to direct it that way. And a lot of artists (surrealists for example) have really struggled to make something without guiding it.
2006-05-01 [iippo]: I'm not very fond of the "work will speak for itself" -approach, really, but I'm a dictator like that: I made it, I'll speak for it! :P
2006-05-01 [raza]: ok, but so now come back the arguement that "everybody can do it". We don't need to be perfectly skill to make something that will express what they feel. So everybody can do Art. Oh, someone said, i don't remember who that "everyone is gifted, but only few people can follow the dark path of this gifts." sorry for not say it correctly, i knew it only in french. O.o But does art resum itself of being enough brave to show what we did and assume it? Oh, and for the "work will speak for itself", for my part, it depends of my mood. lol :)
2006-05-01 [iippo]: Everyone who thinks they can do art, can do art. It looks like a small difference, but it is a huge one. Many people - sadly - are far to cynical to do art. Some are too shy, some are too busy. But I don't mean you have to have a certain personality - you just need to overcome any obstacles that would prevent you from making art, like shyness (if you're afraid of the white paper, how can you draw on it?) or cynicism. But yes, you don't need to be trained or talented or even have had years and years of drawing practice to be able to do art. But if you don't have the skills, are you satisfied with the quality of your work? Possibly not, you might end up with an end-result you don't think is...
2006-05-01 [iippo]: ...correct in saying what you wanted to say, thus making you "not capable of doing art". The answer to that is naturally practice, but practice takes time so if you're busy with other things, you might not end up having time for art.
2006-05-01 [raza]: Ok i agree, but, if you don't need to practice, as t's the case when you do nothing on the thing you show as art (i saw really strange things sometimes, as some pieces of wood, titled "untitled".) So, no need to have time, no need to have skill, no need to practice... I'm glad you think that every body can be an artist. If we are in the case of the artist that invent AFTER making his piece what he wants, it will always be as he wanted to be. mmh, and i'm sorry, i didn't really get the point about cynism. Maybe a difference of nuance in the french term.
2006-05-01 [iippo]: The tree-thing art is called "found objects". And it does take time and eye to find stuff: you still have to go somewhere and see the art in something "random" -- a cynic would be incapable of doing this. The meanings that "found objects" often have is things like 'taking something out of its original habitat and placing it under the human eyes' (tree in a gallery - if it's dead = urban living is the death of nature, if it's alive in a pot = humans imprisoning nature? For example). The "found objects" thing started a long time ago with DADA (even the movement's name is a found object! They just opened a French dictionary and picked the first thing they saw XD) and they caused an outrage.
2006-05-01 [iippo]: A cynic in my opinion is someone who has quite a negative opinion on things, doesn't believe in miracles, possibly doesn't believe in art either.
2006-05-01 [raza]: I have already have heard of "found objects" but i didn't think what was here could be. It wasn't with other objects which are "found objects", so maybe that's the reason why i didn't make the link with it... I know the Dadaism. :) I find it really original, but only the first can be called artist, because after, even if they do something elsen the main idea is already taken if you see what i mean. :) And so, we come back to this: art ishaving a great idea, before everyone, and now, it's almost always express this idea with the more complexe way we can find. I don't think that making complicated is making art. For sure, not everyone can do it, but? Ok for the cynism, we don't have the same
2006-05-01 [raza]: ... definition.
2006-05-01 [iippo]: But "found object" is a method of making art, thus it doesn't make you unoriginal if you use the same method, just like you're not unoriginal if you paint, just because there's hundreds of years of painters in history before you. There is an interesting artist who "makes" found object sculpture: he takes photos of things that people have put on display on the street. You know how some people find a glove on the street and hang it from a bannister, so whoever is looking for it, will find it? (Although if someone is looking for it, they'd be looking on the ground o.O) and some people in lack of a bin, put a soda can on a bit of wall or fence instead of putting it to the street, etc...
2006-05-01 [iippo]: And the artist takes photos with his cameraphone of these every day items on display. Who is the author of the art? The person who unconsciously places the item there, or the man who chances by and snaps a pic with his camera phone? (He makes it a rule that he himself musn''t put things anywhere for composition, or "manipulate" the scene in any other way.)
2006-05-01 [raza]: mmh, yeah i understand what you meant about "found object", but i talked about the Dadaism, for the poem, for exemple. Mh, you ask question too now? lol :) Who's the artist? I think that the person who acted with conscious of what he did is the artist... But if someone else decide to do the same, i mean, take photo of random things on the street he won't be an artist, as if someone make a poem Dada, taking random words, he won't be an artist anymore, don't you think? :) I find his rule to taly normal.. that's what is original by the way in this work... :)
2006-05-01 [iippo]: Someone who reads about him and does the same... Hmm, I think it'd still be art, since there is that certain amount of anonymity, and they'd take pictures of different things. Using someone else's idea just because they are an artist doesn't make you an artist (so taking a ruler and making some black lines on a white canvas and colouring some bits in wouldn't be art if not made with 'the intent'). But someone who made a poem with the Dada-method would still be original (and no such thing as random words, there is only a limited amount from which to choose from). It all comes down to the "why". If making something just because someone else made art like that, then the why is not sufficient...
2006-05-01 [iippo]: ...for the end-result to be called art. But if happening to do the same as another, or if inspired by something someone else did, it's still art, even when the end-result is similar or same.
2006-05-01 [raza]: You think it'd still be art? mmh, i don't think so, but that's not the debate. ;) Oh yes, true it's not only random words, but indeed, i think using exactly a method that is such original, that method make the thing become art. i mean, someone who paint use the same method, but, it's not "because it's painting" that it's art. But a dada-method poem is art because it's a dada poem, do'nt you think? And personaly i don't think that the why is totaly sufficient... When we see Art, there is something more than the purôse of the artist behind, i mean, maybe an art piece allow people to find something which is inside them, that some art, closed to the majority, can't make it for everyone. It's..
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